Welcome on H comme Handicapé.e.s (D like Disabled) the podcast who passes the mic to disabled people because we need to hear them more For this 6th and last episode of the season I had a chat with Morgan.e. We talked about their experience as a queer disabled person. And if we sound tired, it's because we are. Tired of how ableist the LGBTQ+ community is. But this is just one of the many topics you're gonna hear about in this episode. We also talked about the history of the LGBTQ+ community and how it's connected to the psychatric world. And also about Frida Khalo

First of all can you introduce yourself a little bit ? 

So, I'm Morgan, I'm a queer and disabled person. I'm 26, no not 26, I'm 36 years old. And I'm an artist. Sort of speak. I mostly do collages, and my goal with those collages is to give visibility and representation to the disabled community

We're here today to talk about how it's like to be part of both the LGBTQ+ community and the disabled community. Because we're recording this episode today but it's not pride month yet. But this episode will be released during pride month. First before talking about the LGBT community I wanted to hear more about you and your journey with your queerness and how you're realised you were queer ?

It took me a long long (one more) laughs long time to realise it. But I think it's...It makes sens that for me as a disabled person it took me such a long time. Because I had to deal with my disability first. I grew up with like a lot of us I think, with that idea in mind that I was a burden. So I had to fight harder than able bodied people to be a little bit considered. So for years I tried to perform this heteropatriarchal model that is forced on us. To be as able bodied as possible, as cisgender as possible, as straight as possible

When you were non of those three

*That's It. (laughs) Yeah that was pretty much it. I wasn't. So I exhausted myself until...Well until I couldn't take it anymore. I was sick and tired of everything. And I started to learn a little bit about feminism. That lead me to Monique Wittig. And she definitly...She definitly changed my life. Yeah that's how I realised that I could take another path. So I took it and it felt good. It was the best decision I ever made.

Yeah I think that for a lot of us, feminism helped us realized a lot of things

I mean yeah, for starter that we are human beings. That we matter. That the way we are treated isn't OK. That being said feminism as we know it today is still very far from perfect when it comes to disabled people. Cause it doesn't think about us. It's very focused on cis heterosexual people. A little bit too much in my opinion. But like the rest of society is.

I totally agree. But we're digressing a little bit here. We talked about feminism with Marina during the first episode. You can listen to it if you want. But for now we're gonna talk about the LGBTQ+ community

(laughs)

Otherwise I'm gonna mix everything up. I highly recommend the first episode by the way. It's a really great one. But yeah, end of digression.
So second question, you talked about it a little bit already. But was it easy for you to be...To accept the fact that you were both queer and disabled. Cause I know that for me it has been really hard and it took me years to accept it

Yeah it also took me a lot of time and I think I still have a lot of work to do when it comes to internelized ableism and internelized queerphobia. I try to be kind to myself and it actually makes sense. Cause we live in societies that are so normative. So when you have to deal with two different opression at the same time, well it's even more difficult. And it's everywhere, all the time. But once you..For me, as soon as I totally accepted my disability. Well "acccepted" yeah I think it's the right word. More like...Once I owned it. Once I finally understood that..At least in my opinion disability is a social construct. We live in societies that are based on such normative ideas of what being human means, what having a "natural" behavior or whatever that means. So when you're not a part of that norm it costs you a lot and you have to pay that price your whole life. So of course it has been a very long and painfull road before I finally accept the fact that I wasn't going to be a part of that norm. And it took me a while to be happy about it. Cause it sucks to be put in a box. (laughs) And I don't wanna be put in a box.

(laughs) Definitly. And so yeah you were talking about this hyper, hyper normative hetero patriarchal norm. And do you think that your disability influenced your queerness ? Like did your disability played a part on your queerness ?

Well in my opinion they're both deeply rooted in the same history. For starter queerness and the history of queer people is a story of ableism. I mean we have been put in psychatric institutions. And we still are. Trans people are still dealing with a lot of violence from the psyc world. So it's very difficult for me to seperate those two things. I don't really understand how it's possible to not see that...That everything is connected. But like racism or like any kind of oppression really. Cause once again, our societies, their only goal is to control our bodies. And as soon as our bodies don't fit the standards created by our societies, well they're not very happy about it and they let us know by punishing us for it. I mean, "not verry happy". It's a bit chilldish when you say it like that but you know what I mean. It's really...Ableism, racism, queerphobia, or fatphobia...They're just a way to have control over us and over our bodies. And I think once you get that, you feel a little bit lighter

Yeah, for sure. And espacially when you're like us, when you're born with a visible disability, that makes your body visibly different...Well, we're instantly rejected from that hetero patriachal norm. And so because of that we're even more queer than any of the non disabled queer people on this planet.

(laughs)

And by the way if you're listning to this and you don't know what "queer" means. At first it was an homophobic slur that meant "weird" or "twisted" in opposition to "straight" that also means "heterosexual"

Yeah so we're queer by essence. Litteraly

Yeah that's it. Cause we're litteraly not straight. We're unsteady. Litteraly.

(laugh) Yeah and this idea of binarity between queer and straight or even just the idea of binarity itself, but that's another story.. It doesn't make sens because we as individuals are all different. We're not inherently straight We're all a little bit "twisted" or a little bit straight. Depending of our point of view. It really doesent make any sens to me, this way of thinking. This way to see the human body as a norm and to think that there is only one way possible to live, to think and to be in that body.

Yeah sure. Defenitly. But I mean disabled people are even more outside of that norm. So yeah we're actually queer by essence. Even disabled people who are straight and cisgender, are queer in a way. If you take the first definition of the word. So yeah.. Just inclued us into the LGBTQ+ community please, cause we deserve a place in this community. But yeah I'm actually going a little bit too fast here. I'm already getting to the third question. Third or fouth ? I don't remember. But yeah so the next question... As a disabled person do you feel included and represented whitin the LGBTQ+ community ?

Well no. Obviously. But I don't feel represented in society, or in any kind of community. But yeah in this community that is supposed to be my community. No, definitly not. I can't think of a place were we are praised. Either in this community or in another one. We're very often rejected.
There is a phrase by Merri Lisa Johnson where she says that there is a form of reluctance from the queer community when it comes to reach out to disabled people. And I thinnk it's pretty accurate. I think there is a kind of...A kind of love hate relationship. And once again I think it comes from our history. Our history as queer where we've been through a lot of violence from the psych world, which is in a way, a form of ableism. And after they experienced this non disabled people, not all of them but a lot of them. Especially gay guys. White cis gay guys. They managed to get out of this and they don't wanna get back into it so they left a part of the community behind.

Yeah they don't wanna have to deal with it one more time.

Exactly. Cause they managed to get out of this so...Yeah it's kind of sad. I don't know if they're...I don't know if they're aware of it or not. But I think it can explain some things. Cause there is a lot of, you know, serephobia within the community. And it doesn't make any sense. It's such a "mindfuck" way of thinking. And for me serophobia is a form of ableism.

Yeah, for sure.

We're so...Yeah rejected. They're rejecting the disabled and the chroniclly ill community

Yeah, that's interesting. I never thought about it like that but yeah, that's interesting. Yeah so, does the LGBTQ+ community has an ableism issue ? YES (laugh) 

Yes absolutely ! Yes. I think there's maybe a...Or at least that's the way I want to see it. And of course cause we're surrounded by this oppression of course we're just replicate what we've been tauht. But I think there's also some kind of...unsolved traumas.

Yeah, that's maybe a way to think about it. And so...Cause so far we've been talking about the LGBT community as a whole. But do you have any annecdotes of personal experiences you had within the community, that could illustrate what we've been talking about ?

Well that's... that's a bit difficult to find positive things to say about the community, cause it has been really hard on us. With covid...

Oh but don't worry we're not here to say positive things about the community (laugh)

(laughs) 

Cause it has been really... We're really...Once again we have been left behind. "At best" left behind. We've been left...Thrown under a bus and then...And that's it. Everey man for himself. The thing that really distrubed me was... Well of course on a personal level, I was sad to see that...Well they really didn't give a fuck about us. Of course it's not the best feeling for your ego. But also...I was confused cause it felt like...What the LGBT community was doing, felt very. similar to what the gouvernement was doing. I think that there has been a big lack of slidarity and collective care since the covid crisis. Well in fact, the covid crisis showed us what was already there. It just made it bigger. Cause it is a crisis. So yeah a lack of collective care and an abandonement. We've been put on the side, nobody listened to us and...And you know all these clandestin parties that were happening. All those things happening without them thinking twice about it. And then they start whining when we tell them it's really ableist.

Yeah that's so true. I remeber an instagram post you did last year after the Paris Pride. In july if I'm not mistaking.

Yeah that's right. That was really...I didn't take part in another demonstration since then. And I'm not sure I will again.

Well yeah. Nobody was wearing a mask. Nobody thought about a way to include disabled people.

Yeah it's like... Queer non disabled people think everybody is non disabled.

Yeah 

Literally. You know it's like they don't think about health. We talk a little bit more about mental health. To a certain extent, and in a certain way. You can't be too "mentaly ill". I don't like that term but you know what i mean. You can be a little bit mentaly ill but not too mentaly hill. And physical disabilities are not a thing. That kind of selfish ableist and actually eugenist behavior. It really replecates what the gouvernement and the state have been doing. Meaning letting us die alone and what will be, will be. And it's true that it's kind of the opposite of what's the LGBT community is supposed to be. We're supposed to be all about love and glitters. Well that's... The glitters are not for us. They're not for disabled people.

Yes absolutely. Actually I remeber that when I read your post, I wasn't living in France at that time. I was living in Austria. And a week before I read your post I had just experienced the best Pride of my life. It was amazing because...Well it wasn't in Paris, it was in a small town in Austria so there wasn't as many people. And because or maybe thanks to covid there was a distanciation mode, where everybody was on wheels. On bikes, on skateboards, or in wheelchairs...And so it was really cool because there was much more space, and everybody was pretty much on the same level and I didn't have lift my head up to see people. I didn't felt breathless or anything like that. And it was really great. We went around the city, twice. We had all the street just for us. The cops were super chill. Nothing went out of hands. It was so cool. And I was so happy, it was the first time that I felt really included in a queer event. And then I read your post and I realized that I had to go live in Austria to feel included in my community. So, there's really like...Work to do. A lot of work to do.

Yeah there's really a lot of work to do.

But yeah I hope that...Cause like you said, this pandemic has shown how ableist this community really was. But I hope that some people will realize that, and will try to make things better, because...

Well I hope so too. Because the idea is not to blame people and their behaviors. Even though of course these behavoirs are blameworthy. But it's more about makin them think about it. Cause as a community we can do better. And I think it could have been done pretty easily. Actually I think that the violence that we experienced was made possible because...Because it was replicated. But we don't have to do that. We could have done better. We could have thought differently. And we should. At least I hope that we will. I think that many of us - at least disabled people - are burned out, let's be honest. But we're gonna get back up and I think that we'll manage to make some stuff. Yes I've been desapionted by the LGBT community but I think that it's not a big deal. What I mean by that is, it's not because we've done some shitty things that it gonna stay that way. On the contrary. When I open my mouth it's like a calling. It's like a call for love. Cause I don't except anything from that cis-hetero society. But I except things from the queer community. Cause I love that community. So yeah when I open my mouth it's like a call for love. It's like a call in, you know. It's like : Yeah bad things happened, bad things that hurt us and put us in danger. You need to realize that and we need to do better. We need to really be a community. Meaning taking care of one another. And we can do it. I don't wanna be angry my whole life. It feels good to let it all out, to put a name on that anger, to put words on it when I need to. But I don't wanna be stuck with that anger. You need to turn it into something helpfull, otherwise it's useless.

Yes exactly. That's actually exactly why I've started this podcast. But yeah I totally agree with you. Espacially because...It's even more painfull cause we are part of this community. And we wanna feel included, we wanna feel loved by this community. So we feel even more rejected, when again we're part of this community.

Well yeah, we shouldn't have to...Work twice as much to feel included. We shouldn't have to hide our disabilities to be able to enter non accessible places. We shoudn't have to do that. Going through that is brutal and humuliating. And non disabled people who organize thoses events need to realize that. How humuliating it is. And you're just doing what we already experience in our everyday life. We can do better. And it can be done in an pretty easy way, and not that expensive. But for that to happen you need to listen to us first.

Exactly. You need to listen to us.

Well yeah it's like the first thing to do. Listening to us. Non disabled people need to understand that just because they have a disabled friend that can do like 50 things per day, it doesn't mean that another disabled person can do the same. You know, like, we need to stop essentialising people. Disabilit is a very large spectrum and we all need different things. And that's ok. There are pretty easy ways to make things accessible to a vast majority of people.

Yes absolutely. I know that personally it took me a very lon time befor actually going to queer events, just because I was so scared of once again being rejected. Actually I think that, is there is queer non disabled people listening to this right, they really need to understand that by doing this they miss the chance to have new siblings. By making there events not accessible, they miss on that chance and opportuity.

Yeah and they're also rejecting siblings. It's not just about...

Yeah exactly

There is a real action behind not making spaces accessible. And it's that you're rejecting us. People really need to understand that disability is not a matter of weakness or strenght, but just a social injustice. Cause yeah i might have different abilities than you Mister non disabled, but it's not a reason for you to litteraly close doors on me. I mean, just because I can't walk doesn't make it ok for me to not be able to take the subway. It's not ok.

Yes exactly. What would you like to say to the non disabled queer people that might be listening to this right now?

Well amplify our voices. Educate your loved ones. Call them out when they something shitty on disability and chronic illnesses. Boycott the events that are not accessible. Just be allies. Like for real. Of course the first step is to start educate yourself. But if you already know some things...Yeah. And this also works for non disabled people by the way. We all have a lot of internalised ableism. I know some queer disabled people that still have a lot of work to do. And it's not to shame them. On the contrary. It kind of makes me sad. But yeah it's some real work, and it would benefit everbody to work on this. Non disabled as much as disabled people. Cause that preassure and productivity that we put on our bodies. It's a lot to take on. And it's just capitalism. So just be anti-capitalism. Like for real.

Yes exactly. And I would like to add something : Don't wait to meet disabled people to do the work.

YES !

Don't wait to have disabled people in your life to do the work. Do your own research. Like...

Yeah we're not your teachers !

Yeah exactly. I thin that was a pretty good last word

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